Mark Oppenheimer edits The New Haven Review and is the author of “Thirteen and a Day: The Bar and Bat Mitzvah Across America.”
Bar Mitzva is at age thirteen.
Bat Mitzva, though, is at age twelve.
Sunday, April 26, 2009
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8 comments:
Actually many families are celebrating bat-mitzvahs at 13 in the spirit of gender equality.
You may not agree with it, you may not like it, but the fact is that many are doing it.
Many people eat kosher-style and think it's really kosher. So what. People do a lot of things. But it's not bad once and a while to point out what is true rather than popular.
What is true is what people do, not what you think they should do.
Besides, your point was to make fun of the author of the book, when in fact he actually had it right!
Oh, you want to dialogue.
a) I am not making fun of the author but of those he covers: the Jews who celebrate Bat Mitvah ceremonies at 13.
b) I am expressing support for the Jewish approach, call it religious, cultural, physiological or what, that sees woman/the female as preceding males into adulthood - in other words, they are "better" or at least "different" somehow. no leveling.
c) not what all people do is true although perhaps real. I think people shouldn't kill people in suicide bombing missions. do people kill that way? yes. Is it good? Can a value be attached to it? Nu?
a) Why make fun of ANYBODY? Some (most) people are different than you.... why make fun of them?
b) Separate but equal is not equal and in you understanding of the "jewish approach" to women they are definitely not treated "better".
c) Wow. One minute I'm writing about a possible positive attitude towards celebrating Bat-Mitzvahs at 13 and the next I'm supposed to be assigning value to suicide bombers??? What's your point here?
a) true. I need not make fun of people. but it's better than getting angry at some people who presume to usurp a tradition that need not be altered.
b) sorry but in this case they are separate and NOT equal. women are better.
and how do you arrive at your (mistaken) conclusion about my "understanding" of the "Jewish approach"?
c) ah. sorry if you have difficulty in following my train of thought. my fault. when customs are altered due to popular pressure - convenience, financial considerations, peer pressure, and whatever, - a value is lost. especially religious traditions under pressure of society. you, i understood, are all for across-the-board celebration of adulthood at 13 (why not lower the boys to 12? because men are superior?) because "the people" want it/like it. the people become the arbiters. well, when that happens, you can end up assuming that you can discriminate against people, cause them financial loss, injure them or worse, simply because you have your own value-system instead of one based on a literature of argumentation and intepretation many years old that has withstood the test of time and times. it's called carrying things through to their logical end.
a) The whole set of traditions that you say need not be altered is itself an alteration of earlier traditions. What's wrong with altering traditions?
b) "Better?" ... is that why the're denied the right to lead the services for a minyan... or even be counted towards a minyan... and a zillion other "better" rights? Heck, in my building they're not even allowed to serve on the Vaad Baayit.
c) If I understand this, you are saying that without formally prescribed "traditions" man would have no moral values. Do you speak from personal experience... are you saying that if it weren't for Halachic mandates against stealing and murdering you yourself would merrily go on your way stealing and killing? Really????
Obviously we won't agree on most issues but my simple, sole question is... is it not enough to concentrate on your quality writing about the positive side of subjects you love (Shilo, Begin studies, family, friends, etc.) and stop making fun of people you don't agree with.
Thanks for letting me write,
Mark
a) if it isn't broke, don't fix it.
b) i'm not Hareidi. let's not get carried away.
c) stealing maybe not. but as a system that applies itself universally, sure it's the best.
d) glad to have you stop by.
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