My wife and I attended the Yeshiva University Alumnus Shabbaton. It was fine, well, until the Seuda Shlishit, the third meal eaten on the Shabbat.
Rabbi Meir Goldvicht spoke. Seems he's the nephew of the great Rosh Yeshiva of Kerem B'Yavneh and has left to live in the United States. About two-thirds into his talk, which was too long in any case (and by that I mean that simply he spoke longer than intended by the organizers), he began to justify the Golah (Exile) living over that in Eretz Yisrael.
At first, most of the 450 people there were puzzled as he quoted a figure of 32% of Religious-stream educated kids becoming irreligious and said that it was because we don't know who the teachers are and because since veryone is Jewish, there is no way to protect our children from influences that come from other Jews. In Chutz-LaAretz, since we know who are goyim, we are better defended against bad influences.
Then he went on to say that in Chutz LaAretz, there is "community" which isn't anymore in Israel even though Bnei Yisrael are only considered a community in Israel.
I don't want this to be too arcane for too many people but I must say it just got worse and maybe he began to realize that he was faux-pas-ing something fierce as his thoughts became slightly disjointed. In fact, when we all walked over to Maariv services, he had a bit of a silly grin on his face as he realized that he erred big time. I mean, after all, he was talking to the YU alumni who had made aliyah and specifically left the US so that they could bring up their kids Jewishly as much as possible with all the dangers that do exist, spiritually and physically.
Rabbi Reuven Aberman spoke to him harshly, quoting assimilationist figures of 70% and admittedly, generously, that maybe he (Rav Aberman) just didn't have the intelligence to comprehend what Rabbi Goldvicht was talking about. Many other people, (many? almost everbody), were disturbed, so much that Richard Joel had to get up and speak for 10 minutes just before Havdallah to try to calm things down. He was interrupted twice and was almost at the edge of an abyss.
To make it short, here anyway, I would suggest that Rav Goldvicht not speak again for the rest of the week. He could only make things worse. Joel should ask him to clarify his thoughts in an article for the Commentator. At the most, it should be fun tosee him either explain himself, apologize or simple recant.
P.S. Here's the apology that arrived Sunday evening.
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18 comments:
Since I'm pretty sure R' Goldwicht doesn't blog, I'll step up to the plate to "justify" his "yeridah," which will hopefully lead you to recant your unfounded indictment and disrespectful tone.
When Rabbi Dr. Lamm originally recruited R' Goldwicht to YU, R' Goldwicht consulted R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zatza"l, with whom he was extremely close. R' Shlomo Zalman told him to go, and every year after that R' Goldwicht would ask R' Shlomo Zalman if the time had come to return home yet. Anyone who has spent any time in R' Goldwicht's shiur or paid a visit to R' Goldwicht's apartment is aware of his strong feelings toward Eretz Yisrael.
While your determination to stay despite the challenges is certainly commendable, I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that, unlike R' Goldwicht, you don't directly touch thousands of peoples' lives on a weekly basis with your shiurim. If and when R' Goldwicht does leave the US, it will be noticed, to put it lightly.
R' Goldwicht will come home when the time comes (and in fact comes home as often as possible, giving shiurim in different cities throughout Eretz Yisrael once every two months or so). Until then, he will continue to strengthen the community at YU and throughout the NY/NJ area despite the obvious sacrifice of living in galut.
TalisKatan:
The argument is very old: Rambam vs. Lubavitcher Rebbe, Menachem Mendel of Vitebsk vs. the Baal Shem Tov, Rav JB Soloveitchik vs. Rav Aaron Lichtenstein. I believe that there is Torah and Torat Eretz Yisrael. Just like there can be no renewed Semicha or true Kiddush HaChodesh outside the borders of EY, so too is it better to try to live in EY than in Galut.
Whether or not, Rav Goldwicht received a heter is not the point. The point is: of all the assemblies to imply that it is better for the community of Jews to live in Galut or EY, the last one should have been musmachim and alumni of YU/RIETS/TI etc. in EY.
I don't doubt his Torah knowledge but his Torah wisdom.
And read his apology in my posting.
ymedad:
Sorry, I wasn't clear in my original post that I was responding to joshnathan's indictment and disrespectful tone, not yours. I didn't have a particular opinion regarding your post, and was going to wait until actually speaking with R' Goldwicht so I would have a better idea of what he said before passing judgment.
But to respond to this last comment (still not responding to your actual post), I wouldn't call it a "heter" as much as a "shlichut" -- R' Goldwicht wasn't exactly too keen on leaving Eretz Yisrael.
I'm sorry to see my not specifying that I was responding to joshnathan sparked more disrespectfulness on your part.
Er, what disrespectfulness?
That's the general tone I perceived, based mainly on comments like, "a bit of a silly grin on his face," and, "it should be fun tosee [sic] him either explain himself, apologize or simple [sic] recant (emphasis mine)" from your original post, and, "I don't doubt his Torah knowledge but his Torah wisdom" from your most recent comment.
Sorry if you meant no disrespect in this last comment, but that's certainly how it came across to me given the way you wrote about R' Goldwicht in your original post.
Tallis, I found YM to be quite rspectful, especially considering he had just heard words from a man, who while is certainly a Talmid Chacham, still mildly denigrated the life choice of a roomful of people. Especially difficult to grasp when we are discussing a life choice as idealistic as making Aliyah.
Momof4:
I'm still not sure what R' Goldwicht said at seudah shelishit and will wait until actually hearing what he said in greater detail before passing judgment. Based on what was mentioned in the original post, I would hesitate to say R' Goldwicht "denigrated the life choice of a room full of people," as you put it, even only mildly. Doesn't sound like he was telling them all to pack their bags and hop on the first plane back to America. From what is reported here, he cited a statistic and observed that there is a certain danger in Eretz Yisrael arising from the fact that everyone is Jewish, making it more difficult to screen out bad influences. I don't know what he was referring to when he said there is no community in Israel, Medad doesn't really explain very much in the original post. If I had to guess, I would say he was just trying to point out issues that religious Jews living in Eretz Yisrael need to be aware of, not claiming that living in the Golah is better. But I wasn't there, and based on this alone, I don't see what all the fuss is about. Apparently people were upset by whatever it was that followed, contained in Medad's "it just got worse."
At any rate, you're confounding two things: whether the alumni have a right to be offended and whether Medad's tone is respectful. Saying it will be "fun" to see R' Goldwicht squirm to come up with an explanation for his comments is disrespectful regardless of whether Medad and his fellow alumni felt his comments were critical of their (commendable) life choice.
If respectfulness was as relative as your statement implies, I could be much more vituperative in response to the comments about R' Goldwicht I found offensive and still be considered "to be quite respectful, especially considering I had just heard words from a man who mildly denigrated" a person I admire a great deal.
As for myself, I do not doubt his wealth of Torah knowledge and the contribution he makes to his students and others. Until Shabbat, I actually hadn't been aware of him at all. But try to grasp the situation: YU's big week in Israel. Half a dozen major events. A Shabbaton for Alumni with 400 rooms taken, over 650 people present at Seuda Shlishit. Shi'urim for women (Sara Smiles), shi'urim for men. Rav Lamm, Rav Dovid Miller, Rav Sodolovsky, Rav Amshel, et., etc. Musmachim of YU who have made major contributions to Israeli life, regular graduates, etc. Richard Joel is there. Morrie Katz is there. And Rav Goldwicht gets up to discuss community and change and instead of saying "how can we together correct the situation here because EY is the greatest and in the Golah, we're all striving to follow in your footsteps as soon as we can and even though we're on the sir basar we know that what you olim have done is worthy", he launches into a major analysis of why the Golah is basically better. This was his bottom line and that was my there were murmurings and that's why Rabbanim of equal Torah value, I dare say, were extremely angry and made that anger known to Richard Joel (who oactually didn't need the prodding, but it helped) and immediately after Maariv he stopped the dozens of people from converging on Rav Goldwicht and asked that he be considered the lightning rod and that all criticism be directed at him and he asked all the men (we were in schule) to go over to the banquet hall for Havdallah and he would address us all with a mike. He did and made a valiant and mainly successful attempt to defuse the explosive social situation.
Now, you can argue about Rav Goldwicht's Torah worth and you can argue whether you have to make Aliyah and you can argue about the shortcomings of Israeli society, religious and secular. You can argue whether teachers in the Mamlachti Dati system are more capable than a Yeshiva K'tana in Five Towns. What you shouldn't do is lay it out flat: Golah is better because (a) secular Jews in Israel are more dangerous than Goyim in Galut; and (b) there is a better "community" is Golah than in Israel. That was the essence of his last half of a regular Torah U'Mada drush.
joshnathan, I have realized the error of my ways -- clearly you are so much more knowledgeable about life and ideals and so much holier than R' Goldwicht. Would you please be my new rabbi?
I don't recall anyone ever saying that living outside Eretz Yisrael is ideal, and, as a very close talmid of R' Goldwicht, can personally assure you that he would never say that it is. Whatever it is he did say in his speech at seudah shlishit, I am certain he did not say that it is "ideal" to live in America. That would go against everything I've ever heard him say about Eretz Yisrael.
Just keep in mind as you pass judgment on R' Goldwicht that his decision to come to YU was under the counsel of R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zatza"l -- I would imagine he was quite familiar with the gemara you alluded to.
In an earlier comment, I wrote: "Based on what was mentioned in the original post, I would hesitate to say R' Goldwicht "denigrated the life choice of a room full of people," as you put it, even only mildly. Doesn't sound like he was telling them all to pack their bags and hop on the first plane back to America. From what is reported here, he cited a statistic and observed that there is a certain danger in Eretz Yisrael arising from the fact that everyone is Jewish, making it more difficult to screen out bad influences. I don't know what he was referring to when he said there is no community in Israel, Medad doesn't really explain very much in the original post. If I had to guess, I would say he was just trying to point out issues that religious Jews living in Eretz Yisrael need to be aware of, not claiming that living in the Golah is better. But I wasn't there, and based on this alone, I don't see what all the fuss is about." Now that I've spoken with R' Goldwicht, it is even clearer that his comments were misinterpreted.
As part of his sicha (which was in Hebrew; perhaps this was the reason some of those present misunderstood him), R' Goldwicht addressed the issue of a surrounding culture, pointing out that in America, Jews are safer from certain dangers simply because they are more aware of the dangers that surround them. The line between US and THEM is very clear, which affords a certain protection from the negative influences of the surrounding culture. In Eretz Yisrael, R' Goldwicht observed, it is not quite so easy to protect one's children from negative influences, as those negative influences are coming from other Jews who look and speak like everyone else. For some reason, pointing out an issue the Jewish community in Eretz Yisrael should be aware of was misunderstood by some as justification for living in the Golah, which could not be further from the truth.
He also mentioned communities like Teaneck and Englewood as examples of Jewish communities, which don't exist in Eretz Yisrael. (I can't recall exactly what difference he was trying to illustrate by mentioning them, but I think it was again something to do with the fact that they still have a clear US and THEM.) This was misinterpreted by Medad et al. as the entire concept of community not existing anymore in Eretz Yisrael.
Far from saying the concept of community doesn't exist anymore in Eretz Yisrael, R' Goldwicht was calling on the YU community, in America and in Eretz Yisrael, to come together to address this issue, a very pressing one considering the statistics he cited. For Rabbi Reuven Aberman to come back at him with statistics about assimilation in America is neither here nor there - R' Goldwicht was not suggesting that there is no danger of assimilation in America, nor was he addressing those denominations of American Judaism in which intermarriage is an issue, but was simply raising an issue that religious Jews in Eretz Yisrael cannot ignore.
Anyone who knows R' Goldwicht recognizes that he is truly an inspirational figure, a warm, caring individual who loves every member of Klal Yisrael and every millimeter of Eretz Yisrael. To say he was promoting living in the Golah over living in Eretz Yisrael is disingenuous, to say the least, as he was not even attempting to justify living in the Golah in the first place, but discussing Eretz Yisrael. This is a severe misinterpretation of his words.
To make matters worse, R' Goldwicht's apology was also poorly phrased by whoever translated it and sent it out, suggesting that his original comments contained a negative message which he later retracted, which again could not be further from the truth: he raised an issue that the YU alumni in Eretz Yisrael need to be aware of and combat as a community, and unfortunately his words were misunderstood by some of the alumni present. In no way were his original comments critical of those who made the difficult sacrifice of aliyah. Quite the contrary, they were intended to buttress the community of alumni in Eretz Yisrael, to make them aware of an issue that has caused others in the past to return to America so that they can take care of the issue as a community.
I hope this puts the matter to rest.
joshnathan, he came with the counsel of gedolim and continues to be here on the counsel of gedolim. He has the privilege of being close with many gedolei Torah, so for now you don't have to worry.
Be well
My ISP is in America, but my heart is in Eretz Yisrael :-)
My wife and I will be making aliyah just as soon as I find her.
Kol tuv
see my response to TallisKatan at the apology posting. to tired from flying in the the US to repeat it here.
You guys keep missing the mark.
If the event was a conference on Diaspora-Israel relations, okay we hear such stuff. But given YU's ambivalence over the years (I graduated in 1969 after spending a year in Israel with not enough credit points to do so in my class of 68) and the sharpness of Rav G's criticism that went ideological and reflected badly on his own yerida, temporary or otherwise or shlichut, temporary or otherwise, as well as the simple faux pas which was obvious as otherwise he wouldn't have been forced (?) to apologize, methinks you guys are not defending his behavior but his thinking. To you guys, he can do no wrong because he loves EY and tries to instill the ruach of EY. Well, whether or not I am intelligent enough or not to do what I do (as if you are intelligent or not to know how well or not I am capable of foing what I do), I will not get into a "flame" here and I am mochel you for your intended or unintended smirch.
Your enthusaism to protect your Rebbe is acceptable to me. What's important to me is that I know I'm right and even Rav Goldwicht knows he erred. And more importantly, the YU leadership know he goofed.
Okay, okay. I yield. Rav Goldwicht's talk was misunderstood only by people who get defensive. And Rav Goldwicht's apology about being misunderstood was, er, misconstrued? Is this a conspiracy theory? The murmurings among the tables I was at, the murmurings at Maariv were all from people who have difficulty understanding? Well, if you find comfort in that, fine. I tried commenting on this at the other blog post but it seems that once you are a talmid, that excludes anyone else from comprehending your Rebbe.
This reminds me of way back in 1968, when a few of us demonstrated against the invitation to Lord Caradon, the UK UN Ambassador, to come speak to YU student body (the bloke was the former Sir Hugh Foot, Mandatory District Governor of Nablus in 1938) and demanded Israel's withdrawal already then. Well, the Rav JB Soloveitchik called us in to discuss the matter. I recall his talmidim sneering at us as we walked in, presuming that if we didn't get thrown out for causing damage to the school's reputation, then at the very least we would be undergoing a form a malkot mardut. Less than a half and hour later, we walked out and two days later, the invitation somehow got cancelled. Since then, I've had this appreciation for Rebi'im more than talmidim.
wadr to r' goldvicht, and i do respect him, there are a number of factors that have been overlooked both by the commenters and by r' goldvicht himself.
1) yerida is yerida. it may be justified, even commendable or necessary at times, but a spade is a spade.
2)RSZA has been dead for 10 years. he's a grown man, and makes his own decisions.
3)there's a bigger story of his yerida that has to do w/ KBY politics.
4)the most bizarre thing of all is his idea that kids are better off in American school systems. in yu, it's easy to the success of that system. but there's a big, wide world outside of washington heights, or the tri-state area for that matter. and you don't see the failures because they simply disappear.
The Chofetz Chaim is right, of course. Lucky for the Ravad, he wasn't aware of the Chofetz Chaim when he was busy attacking some Rav by the name of Moshe ben Maimon in some very unsavory fashion.
Our beit k'nesset in Nitzan recently hosted Rabbi Goldwicht, who gave several shiurim to k'hilot here in Nitzan. I remember him giving a shiur to our beit k'neset in Gush Katif before the expulsion. I thought I was the only
zionist left as I refused to stand for this yored when he approached the lectern; notwithstanding the breadth of his Torah knowledge. Once is was an embarrassment to leave Eretz Yisrael for "greener $" pastures.
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