Thursday, August 25, 2011

Should Larry Derfner Be Prosecuted or Just Shunned?

Here is Larry Derfner's thinking on the killing of Jews:

Still, I don’t think Hamas and their allies need any more encouragement, so whatever encouragement they might take from me or any other liberal Zionist is coals to Newcastle. What’s needed very badly, however, is for Israelis to realize that the occupation is hurting the Palestinians terribly, that it’s driving them to try to kill us, that we are compelling them to engage in terrorism, that the blood of Israeli victims is ultimately on our hands, and that it’s up to us to stop provoking our own people’s murder by ending the occupation. And so long as we who oppose the occupation keep pretending that the Palestinians don’t have the right to resist it, we tacitly encourage Israelis to go on blindly killing and dying in defense of an unholy cause.


And by tacitly encouraging Israelis in their blindness, I think we endanger their lives and ours, their country and ours, much more than if we told the truth and got quoted on Hamas websites.

There’s no time for equivocation anymore, if there ever was. The mental and moral paralysis in this country must be broken. Whoever the Palestinians were who killed the eight Israelis near Eilat last week, however vile their ideology was, they were justified to attack. They had the same right to fight for their freedom as any other unfree nation in history ever had. And just like every harsh, unjust government in history bears the blame for the deaths of its own people at the hands of rebels, so Israel, which rules the Palestinians harshly and unjustly, is to blame for those eight Israeli deaths – as well as for every other Israeli death that occurred when this country was offering the Palestinians no other way to freedom.

What do you think?

Is Larry sane?

Is he criminal?

Is he an extremist?

A kook masquerading as a journalist?


Steve Plaut thinks these addresses might be of interest to you:

Yaakov Neeman, Israeli Minister of Justice

Fax 972-2- 6285438
Email: sar@justice.gov.il
Mail Address: 29 Salah a-Din Street
Jerusalem, 91010 Israel

The Attorney General of Israel (same mail address)
Phone 972-2-6466521 or 522 at the end
Fax 972-2-6467001
And you can also type your complain into this form:
http://www.forms.gov.il/globalData/GetSequence/GetSequence.aspx?formType=yoetzmishpati1@justice.gov.il

The form is in Hebrew, but you can write in English. The bottom part of the form is where the complaint goes. The upper part is your name and contact details

If you fax, send a copy also to the director of criminal prosecution in the Ministry at fax 972-2-6271783

http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/Public+Applications/PublicApplications/

and here's the violation of the Penal Code, 144d2:

א. המפרסם קריאה לעשיית מעשה אלימות או טרור, או דברי שבח, אהדה או עידוד למעשה אלימות או טרור, תמיכה בו או הזדהות עמו (בסעיף זה - פרסום מסית), ועל פי תוכנו של הפרסום המסית והנסיבות שבהן פורסם, יש אפשרות ממשית שיביא לעשית מעשה אלימות או טרור, דינו - מאסר חמש שנים.
ב. בסעיף זה,"מעשה אלימות או טרור" - עבירה הפוגעת בגופו של אדם או המעמידה אדם בסכנת מוות או בסכנת חבלה חמורה.
ג. פרסום דין וחשבון נכון והוגן על פרסום האסור על פי הוראות סעיפים קטנים (א) ו - (ב), אינו עבירה לפי סעיף זה.
 
 
 
Incitement to violence or terror


144D2.(a) If a person publishes a call to commit an act of violence or terror, or praise, words of approval, encouragement, support or identification with an act of violence or terror (in this section: inciting publication) and if – because of the inciting publication's contents and the circumstances under which it was made public there is a real possibility that it will result in acts of violence or terror, then he is liable to five years imprisonment.
(b) In this section, "act of violence or terror" – an offense that causes a person bodily injury or places a person in danger of death or of severe injury.
(c) The publication of a true and fair report about the publication prohibited under subsections (a) and (b) does not constitute an offense under this section.

-----------------------

UPDATE

He's apologized and removed the post but...

...but anyone who followed the post over the past few days knows how excited he was in his responses and replies to those who praised him.  He speaks falsely.

Here is Lori's comment on this part of Derfner's apology:
What I mean is this: The occupation does not justify Palestinian terror. It does, however, provoke it. Palestinians do not have the right to attack or kill Israelis. They, do, however, have the incentive to, and part, though not all, of that incentive is provided them by the occupation. I believe that if Israel gives the Palestinians their independence, we have enough military power to neutralize whatever leftover incentive they would have to attack us. So my purpose with regard to Palestinian terror against Israelis is not to legitimize it, God forbid, but to end it.
*******************

...The bottom line is, this guy makes a living by writing. If he is such a colossal clod that he falls so far off the mark when expressing his feelings on his own personal platform, then he shouldn't really be trusted with informing the public about anything, should he? No, his original post...was a clear window into his hideous soul...But as a factual matter, the distinction he relies upon so heavily in his apology does not hold water. He is now saying that he was wrong when he wrote that Israeli behavior justifies Arab Palestinian terror, but his fog has lifted and what he meant to write is that Israeli behavior provokes Palestinian terror...Derfner is still saying Israel is to blame, i.e. is the cause of Arab Palestinian terror...


^

16 comments:

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Anonymous said...

He should be fired as a JPost columnist & prosecuted. Of course, our rotten justice system only arrests rabbis, not leftist traitors. I'd deport him to Gaza so he could be with his ''friends'' in Hamas.

Anonymous said...

He's right. You are wasting your time pretending the West Bank is yours. If you want Jews to be safe, retreat to the borders of 1967.

Adam said...

Derfner's approval of murder violates the Israeli law of incitement.

It is certainly a more direct approbation than Torat Hamelech, which merely clarifies a Jewish legal approach to hypothetical situations.

If those rabbis are guilty of incitement, argumentum a foritori (קל וחומר) Derfner is.

YMedad said...

Anon 11:35 - oh, the lines from which you attacked us before we "occupied" and "settled"? so, tell us, what were we doing wrong pre-67 that you needed the fedayeen and then Fatah to "liberate" is with terror?

YMedad said...

Anon:

Because you employed the N-word, I have had to censore you. That isn't allowed here, not only because it is wrong and immoral but because it means you might be one.

But I left this dribble:

"Pre 1967 you ethnically cleansed the land so it had no people.

I love your debating style. Tittle tattle to the minister for Justice if someone disagrees with you. It is your way or no way."

Actually, that's the law. I mean, as someone who keeps referring us as "illegal", it's preety silly to use your argument against me.

And who ethnically cleansed Hebron, Shchem and Gaza in 1929 of its...Jews? Jews? or Arabs? And that's before 1947-48. Brush up on historical facts.

Anonymous said...

The paragraph preceding your quote:

"But while I think the Palestinians have the right to use terrorism against us, I don’t want them to use it, I don’t want to see Israelis killed, and as an Israeli, I would do whatever was necessary to stop a Palestinian, oppressed or not, from killing one of my countrymen. (I also think Palestinian terrorism backfires, it turns people away from them and generates sympathy for Israel and the occupation, so I’m against terrorism on a practical level, too, but that’s besides the point.) The possibility that Israel’s enemies could use my or anybody else’s justification of terror for their campaign is a daunting one; I wouldn’t like to see this column quoted on a pro-Hamas website, and I realize it could happen. "

YMedad said...

Anon 5:14 - so he's like a wife-beater? First he kisses then he slaps then he caresses then he slaps?

If you recognize their "right", then they think they are right and will kill.

Anonymous said...

My point was more that it seems you intentionally quoted the man out of context. There's plenty to criticize in Derfner's column, but you hurt your own argument when it looks like you're doing so disingenuously.

YMedad said...

Your point is irrelevant to the text. And since he has apologized and withdrawn the post - but I have a full copy if you wish - we all now know that not only is he a man with evil opinions but is an idiot as well.

Anonymous said...

Meager apology. This line is classic:

"I meant, instead, to shock Israelis and friends of Israel into seeing how badly we're hurting the Palestinians by denying them independence:
*It's so bad that it's helping drive them to try to kill us.*

//*The occupation does not justify Palestinian terror. It does, however, provoke it*/

Yes, Palestinians can't help but attack innocent Israelis....WE are to blame for THEIR attacks.

The poor helpless lambs, inexorably drawn to genocidal violence as against their intrinsically pacific nature.

YMedad said...

Borrowed from EOZ:-

The offensive part was that he said very clearly that terrorism was a "right" and it was "justified" - even if he personally disapproves.

Then he backtracks completely:

My intention was to shock people into recognition, but I ended up shocking many of them into revulsion, and twisting what I wanted to say into something I didn’t and don’t mean at all.

What I mean is this: The occupation does not justify Palestinian terror. It does, however, provoke it. Palestinians do not have the right to attack or kill Israelis. They, do, however, have the incentive to, and part, though not all, of that incentive is provided them by the occupation.

This is the exact opposite of what he wrote before:

If those who oppose the occupation acknowledged publicly that it justifies Palestinian terrorism, then those who support the occupation would have to explain why it doesn’t.

Palestinians have the right to resist [the occupation] – to use violence against Israelis, even to kill Israelis....But while I think the Palestinians have the right to use terrorism against us, I don’t want them to use it....Whoever the Palestinians were who killed the eight Israelis near Eilat last week, however vile their ideology was, they were justified to attack.
His attempt to reconcile the two makes it clear that his apology might be sincere in that he didn't mean to upset people so much, but he has not really changed his opinion. He's just suppressing it.

YMedad said...

Dear Anon: you used trhe N-word so you've been redacted:

"Of course the Palestinians have a right to resist the racist Zionist invasion and occupation. "By any means necessary." Just look at the track record of Zionist terror which has been responsible for numerous civilian deaths and massacres from the 1930s and since. The entire state of "Israel" is an anti-Semitic land-grab; one that smears the good name of Jews worldwide as racists, thieves, occupiers and killers.

Your racist occupation regime is far worse than the apartheid regime in South Africa. Finding your own de Klerk is your best chance; otherwise it may take a total military defeat...to rid the world of the Zionist menace.

Anonymous said...

You know what? I agree; too grandiloquent a comparison. It will probably be more like the whimpers of defeat accompanying the French eviction from Algeria.

In the meantime, you should renounce your US citizenship, if you haven't already, as you can obviously no longer be considered a loyal American; and should be considered an enemy combatant. I consider you, and other Zionists, as similar to the KKK. Although of course the KKK never stole an entire country, massacred a thousand people at a time, or had nuclear weapons.