Thursday, March 29, 2012

JewishIsrael Attacks Hagee - Unfairly?

JewishIsrael has posted a short clip of John Hagee describing what will happen on the Temple Mount according to Christian theology, quoting the Book of John and Philppians, I think. Of course, in the first instance, Temple Christology is still in self-argument about what Hagee was referring to in the clip.  But that is, to an extent, off-topic. In a companion blog post, JI asserts:
Last week, Pastor John Hagee used the rooftop of one of the most respected Torah institutions in the world, which overlooks the Kotel and Har Habayit, to declare that jesus is lord and king and to assert that "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess" that belief.
If you review the clip, you will come to the conclusion, that Hagee pronounced a text that any tour guide would - okay, his tone was reverential but that is his voice, but it was a factual statement of what is in the New Testament and what certain Christians believe. I didn't see or hear any worship feature in the clip nor any preaching. The JI headline - "Hagee Preaches the Gospel from the Aish HaTorah Rooftop" - I think is wrong and misleading. But that's their style. They 'interpret' for you. Like this:
There are a number of reasons why Christians support Israel, but to underestimate or dismiss Jewish concerns, or the importance of the evangelizing and eschatological agendas for Hagee, is simply misleading... In the last month we have seen purported Christian friends of Israel involved in the repeated desecration of Torah scrolls, schedule a Passion Play at the Kotel's Davidson Center, and now crown their deity as king over Jerusalem, from the Old City rooftop of Aish HaTorah, overlooking the Temple Mount. Jewish Israel has the greatest respect for Aish HaTorah and its institutions, but if this chillul Hashem is part of the cost involved when we Jews embolden evangelical designs by accepting vast amounts of their love and support, then perhaps it's time to say "no thank you" and for Jewish leaders to call for a complete reevaluation and reassessment of this relationship.
And they also interpret 'freedom of religion':
...freedom to worship just isn't good enough anymore - it has to be "complete". And to the evangelical that means the right to shout the gospel from the rooftops of Jerusalem. It seems Hagee was testing the waters a bit and reveling in his new found freedom.
Actually, freedom of religion does mean that, as long as it isn't done too loudly, at weird hours, etc. That's the freedom the state of Israel, as a democratic state, has the responsibility to do. ^

15 comments:

Anonymous said...

I saw the clip and don't understand the fuss. Not sure whyJI hasn't figured this out yet but John Hagee is Christian, not Jewish and he is apastor not a rabbi. Of course, Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiahand that he is returning and will usher in the 1,000 year reign from Jerusalem, from the Temple Mount. Some Christians don't believe there will be a temple, but I guess he does. Butwhy does this get them upset. Don't Christians have the right to believe asthey wish? He is issuing this film to Christian believers all over the worldand using this to connect Christians to Israel. Does JI want us to closeour tourism business and not allow Christian tourists to visit because they seeChristian significance in the places we hold dear? This is nuts!

Anonymous said...

I think that they are nudnikim. Hagee is not preaching to Jews. And as long as that is the fact, I don't care what of how he envision the end days of whatever be calls it.

Juniper in the Desert said...

I think the complaint is that Pastor Hagee is saying Jerusalem will be Christian, when whatever it is descends from the sky, onto the Temple Mount. People read it as Christian supremacy over the TM and Israel, just like the muzzies.

Anita Tucker said...

My right word , Winkie,you are right that the criticism (no matter how insensitive Pastor Hagee's declaration in the roof of a Jewish Torah institute may have been ) should not be of Hagee! The criticism must be on ourselves, on us Jews who can see this clip and not feel that we have opened a door that allows the chillul kevod Hatorah,chillul Hashem of such a declaration that challenges our faith to be made and distributed around the globe from a place that represents Torah and kevod Hashem.
We Jews have to check if our sensativity feelers have not been damaged when we are no longer disturbed by this. I wonder what it is that has caused this damage to our feelers toward kevod Hatorah and kevod Hashem?

YMedad said...

Anita,

And I think that someone's sensitivity feelings have indeed been damaged but the wrong way. I am to be disturbed that a Christian has a different religious outlook than me? Do you really think he is "buying" Jewish souls or is he contributing to the continued success of the Jewish redemptive process? Do I need a Hagee (and others) and his Christian Zionism or do I need US administration pressure? Do I simply say 'what God wills' or, knowing that sometimes that doesn't work, do I seek allies or not? If I have no direct evidence of "soul snatching" but, on the other hand, am impressed by the pro-Zionist support, and unlike, it appears you, am not impressed that there is Chillul Kavod HaTorah and moreso, am convinced that his behavior and that of others like him is in line with the prophecies that "foreigners" will come, seek us out, wish to come to Jerusalem and that it is incumbent on us Jews to find the proper relationships and not totally reject an outstreched hand which is referred to in our books?

If the future of the state of Israel - diplomatically, politically, economically, militarily - is endangered, and the security of its citizens is unsure, would you wish to seek out friends within the restrictions and limitations or would you mock them, ignore them, rail against them?

Do we need be careful? suspect? aware? Yes. But there's a vast difference between what that post and too many others have done, especially employing the 'guilt-by-association' trick, and what is required.

Anonymous said...

I find Fenton and JewishIsrael distasteful and fanatical.

It’s not enough to know who your enemies are. You need to know who your friends are too. And we don’t have enough to be picky.

We have some personal friends who are Evangelical Christians from the States, and I can tell you that Israel has no stauncher or more loyal allies. Never detected even a whiff of an ulterior religious motive. And I have a good sense of smell.

ellen said...

Winkie,
Get real. Something highly inappropriate went down here. You don't need to defend Christian belief and doctrine at the expense of Jewish foundations and principles. You can be honest and call "foul" when a line is overstepped. True Gentile friends will only respect you for it.

Pastor Hagee most definitely trampled a sacred line. I think he knows that now, because as of yesterday John Hagee Ministries removed the video from their YouTube channel and Facebook page.

If a church forbid a rabbi from using its property to attack Christianity as idol-worship, would it be a violation of that rabbi's religious freedom? If your answer is "Yes", then you're more "liberal" than the Left.

The Jewish state is certainly entitled to set boundaries which will protect the dignity and nature of the state and of Judaism.

Obviously if a Jewish activist like you can't see anything wrong with mega pastor taking advantage of Yeshiva property in Eretz Yisrael to declare a belief that is the very antithesis of Judaism, then perhaps it's your soul that has been snatched.

This isn't an "alliance" between sensible parties, this a "seduction"

Where are "the restrictions and limitations" that you call for? It seems to me that Jewish Israel has been consistently calling for our Jewish leadership to accountability and urging them to establish responsible relationships with Gentile parties.

But what do we get from you? NPR radio recording you "jokingly" singing "Onward Christian Soldiers" to a Christian group that has been actively involved in supporting messianic missionary endeavors in Israel.

Jewish leadership has seen better days, Winkie.

Just a some side notes to "Anonymous", Mina Fenton and Jewish Israel are not affiliated or working together. Why are people writing in as "Anonymous"? What are they afraid of? And why do those comments always lack substance?

YMedad said...

Let's go backwards:

a) yes, I am aware that Miuna is even too extreme for you. Not everybody knows that.

b) Jewish "leadership"? They are afraid of being besmirched by Jewish Israel, I guess.

c) Which group is involved now in missionary activity? Our is "has been" way in thre past and now they do not which means perhaps we are winning the battle?

d) as for my r&l, put me on board and maynbe work together instead of underming Jewish security and Israeli sovereignty?

e) so, you really think my "soul has been snatched"? well, after libeling me that I "found Jesus", I guess you really can't go lower than this now. you sure Mina Fenton isn't still working for you? or maybe she's snatched your soul?

f) again, Hagee was on the roof of a tourist lookout. He was not in a Yeshiva or synagogue. And I am going to guess that women & men do stand there together which would be inappropriate. And while I am not knowledgeable if Aish does have a sign saying "Non-Jewish visitors Cannot Make Statements that Jewish Israel could possibly twist and misinterpret", I still stand by what I think: Hagess pronounced content that any tour guide would have said. And on second thought, I think that Jagess might not have been aware that the roof was Yeshiva property and condiered it simply another tourist site. Do you know if Aish has any signs there that prohibit activity they do not permit?

f) I am real. JI is living in an impossible idealized reality.

And since I do not celebrate Easter, let's all have a great Pesach.

Anita Tucker said...

Winkie --I so agree with your statement that " that it is incumbent on us Jews to find the proper relationships ".
A relationship with mutual respect.
A relationship in in which Jews are not used to empower values and beliefs that are not theirs and clearly forbidden us.
A relationship in which we are not encouraged to hug and cheer christian leaders . who also happen to support financially and otherwise clearly evangelical missionary(both actually mean the same) orgs .
This is not "guilty" by association. This is their "doing their thing" that we are not permitted nor have any interest to empower .
They are clearly not on the their way up to Har "Hashem" as we Jews see it if as Pastor Hagee declared on roof of aish that on Har Hashem will rule his human Jesus.

I show respect and do not mock anyone, yet we are clearly obligated to stand like lions to defend the honor of the One G-d and the honor of his Torah!.
Winkie ,can it be that YOU so want the good times to already be here that you are wishful thinking!

Obviously we must establish the guidelines and the red lines for those " appropriate relationships" with people whose beliefs differs on the most basic levels
This remains essential and basic even when we so appreciate the needed support for Israel outside of Israel.

It sounds like you are saying empower them in Israel on every level (knesset,hugs, welfare, real estate ,centers for youth religious centers etc) and after all that sit down and act on " that it is incumbent on us Jews to find the proper relationships " via guidelines and red lines??? .

You talk about the nearing realization of the good times when gentiles will flock to bow to G-d(one G-d ), Yet a chilul Hashem on the most basic level does not concern you??? .

Winkie , I too so want those good times near , however YOU are contradicting yourself on every level!
anita,

Anita Tucker said...

Winkie --I so agree with your statement that " that it is incumbent on us Jews to find the proper relationships ".
A relationship with mutual respect.
A relationship in in which Jews are not used to empower values and beliefs that are not theirs and clearly forbidden us.
A relationship in which we are not encouraged to hug and cheer christian leaders . who also happen to support financially and otherwise clearly evangelical missionary(both actually mean the same) orgs .
This is not "guilty" by association. This is their "doing their thing" that we are not permitted nor have any interest to empower.
They are clearly not on their way up to Har "Hashem" as we Jews see it,if as Pastor Hagee declared on roof of aish that on Har Hashem will rule his human Jesus.

I show respect and do not mock anyone, yet we are clearly obligated to stand like lions to defend the honor of the One G-d and the honor of his Torah!.
Winkie ,can it be that YOU so want the good times to already be here that you are wishful thinking!

Obviously we must establish the guidelines and the red lines for those " appropriate relationships" with people whose beliefs differs on the most basic levels
This remains essential and basic even when we so appreciate the needed support for Israel outside of Israel.

It sounds like you are saying empower them in Israel on every level (knesset,hugs, welfare, real estate ,centers for youth religious centers etc) and after all that sit down and act on " that it is incumbent on us Jews to find the proper relationships " via guidelines and red lines??? .

You talk about the nearing realization of the good times when gentiles will flock to bow to
G-d(one G-d ), Yet a chilul Hashem on the most basic level does not concern YOU??? .

Winkie , I too so want those good times near , however YOU are contradicting yourself on every level!
anita,

YMedad said...

Well, I see one problem in what you write:

I do not consider a Christian turning to an audience of his (for that's what I saw) and repeating a verse from his Bible but again, no more than any objective tour guide would say when explaining why the Temple Mount is important to Christians. That is a chillul lashem? For that you go bonkers? Did he say "Jews have no rights to the Temple Mount"? No, he expressed what his vision is with no preaching, no appeal to Jews.

What are you getting excited about? Too many Jews have worse opinions about what we Israelis should do.

Anonymous said...

Pastor Hagee surely expressed himself as no Jew should, but Pastor Hagee is not a Jew.


I think Jewish Israel is making a great mistake in its focus. It should be focusing on making Jews more Jewish, and should not focus on making Christians less Christian. The mistakes in Christianity will not be rectified by our attacking Christians, but by Christians who listen to us about our understandings, which are so much more reasonable than Christianity.

Dr. Mike Cohen said...

Shavua Tov All,

I wish I had the time to write a complete and comprehensive response, fortunately or unfortunately, between miluim, hosting groups and preparing for chag I can only but say a few words in support of Reb Yisrael.

Having just returned from six intensive weeks of activity on behalf of Torah and Tzion among friend and foe alike I have never been more sure that activity among the nations by tried and true, strong Torah Jews who are part of the hityashvut is necessary at critical levels as never before. We met modern Amalek face on hande in hand and won the day for Israel. We met real evil masquerading as friend and even as false Jew hand in hand and because we were there - many, many, many good people were saved from being fooled and supporting darkness.

Rashi's brilliant explanation of the kfilut in "Vehabor rek ein bo mayim" never meant so much to me as it did during this trip. We have a decision to make my friends - we can be at the bor and warn against the nachashim and akrabim, we can be IN the bor and clean it out by killing them ourselves, or we can let people who are willing and able to be true friends of Israel, in their own way, word and deed fall into it and perish in agonizing ways.

I choose a combination of options one and two. If we don't work together to clear the bor - the snakes and scorpions will win the day. If we are there to warn and eradicate - Israel will go on to win in ways we have yet to imagine.

Let Christians be Christians - and help Jews be Jews. Lets teach all to be ardent Zionists and supporters of G-d's Land and His people.

To Ellen and JI - there are REAL dangers lurking out there. There are REAL haters pretending to be lovers. Why not let alone those of us who know enough to be able to work hard to tell them apart from each other and take on a real challenge - join with us to learn about and fight against the real enemy not the perceived ones like Pastor Hagee or true Torah Jew like Reb Yisrael who is fighting for us all.

If only we had hundreds or even only dozens more true Jewish warriors for Torah and Yisrael like Reb Yisrael - our world would be a much better place.

Koach Lechai Reb Yisrael! Don't let the fear mongers keep you down!

Chag Kasher VeSameach,

Mike

Anonymous said...

You will never change the closed minds of Jewish Israel. Just keep on publishing more positive material and ignore them. In fact, say that Jewish Israel represents a very extreme view and thank G-d most Jews welcome Christian friendship on the basis of mutual respect for each other's beliefs, i.e. we don't try to change their beliefs and they don't try to change ours.

ellen said...

Jewish Israel has responded to Mike Cohen in a follow-up post on the Hagee-Aish issue at
http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profiles/blogs/pastor-hagee-on-the-roof-update