tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7014209.post4681998303949067323..comments2024-03-28T14:55:27.949+02:00Comments on My Right Word: An Exchange of OpinionsYMedadhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14333122797414935958noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7014209.post-72794798763647794852008-05-02T02:33:00.000+03:002008-05-02T02:33:00.000+03:00”and the Arabs privately owned only 15% of the lan...<I>”and the Arabs privately owned only 15% of the land, the rest was up for grabs and the Mandate promised all of that for the development of the Jewish National Home.”</I> <BR/><BR/>First, 15% is more than twice than 7%. Second, I wonder where even this number is coming from. <A HREF="http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm" REL="nofollow">This source</A> details some of the available demographic data and the difficulty in estimating the precise numbers. Regardless, the myth of “land without people for people without land” seems to be just a very convenient fabrication.<BR/><BR/>Mandate promises are immaterial. They were made by a colonial power without asking the indigenous population (neither Jewish, which was on the whole opposed to Zionism at that time, nor Arab) and were definitely superseded by the UN Partition Plan. <BR/><BR/><I>”and yes, I assume that the vast majority of those Arabs deasired the physical extermination of all the Jews in the Mandate area, many acted on that belief (no matter how incompetent you think they were) and then after 1948, they continued, first as fedayeen, then as Fatah, then as PLO, then as Hamas, then as Islamic Jihad and now we have Iran.</I> <BR/><BR/>Wow, you put them all in one big basket of your hate (forgetting, for a second, that Iran is not even an Arab country.) Let’s talk about fedayeen, for example: <I>"Using documentary evidence from IDF archives Israeli historian Benny Morris has concluded that the majority of Palestinians killed on the border between 1949 and 1956 were unarmed migrants.”</I> (<A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence#Early_political_violence" REL="nofollow">source</A>). Talk about <I> “the vast majority”</I>…<BR/><BR/>Hamas became a major force only after we helped it to become such (and Islamic Jihad does not even deserve a mention when talking about vast Palestinian support, being a much smaller group) In fact, all Israel managed to do with its policy is to increasingly radicalize the Palestinian society (admittedly, just as Palestinian leadership with its actions did the same to the Israeli public.) I don’t actually think Hamas is the worst it could get. If Israel were able to substantially weaken Hamas (which doesn’t seem at all realistic), history teaches us that it will only bring about even more despicable groups – more like Al Qaeda, which so far had been opposed by the Palestinians. Even Hamas has more and less moderate elements within it. No, none love the Jews or are willing to accept the two states solution, but the more moderate elements are currently more concerned with creating more or less functioning Palestinian state in the WB and Gaza than with annihilating Israel. If we play it right and smart we can reach some sort of solution with those and who knows what changes both societies will undergo in 10 years of relative calm? Right now the tensions are so high, both sides are so convinced that the other side is the devil incarnate and that there will never be peace between the two, that <B>this belief itself</B> becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. Meanwhile, unless one believes that some people are fundamentally bad based on their ethnic origin – and this is called “racism” – most people on both sides really just want to live normal lives. If it only weren’t for the ideological poisoning of their minds…<BR/><BR/>Regarding Iran, by the way: even if one is to accept the thesis that Iran is the biggest existential threat to Israel and that if it achieves the nukes it will use them against Israel (debatable points both, but regardless), then the most natural thing Israel should do is to achieve some solution vis-à-vis the Palestinians as soon as possible, because it will neutralize the Iranian threat more than anything else (and unless you live in a fantasy land, forget about a military option, really; I don’t think there is anybody in the world that, unless totally delusional, can seriously believe it is possible or will ever happen.)<BR/><BR/>And, finally, you never replied to my question: if you knew there was a really good chance of achieving peace with the Pals but for that you’d have to leave Shiloh or, let’s say, agree to live under Palestinian sovereignty, would you agree? The implication from your answer would be clear: if you would not agree, then the territories are more important for you than peace and all your talk about how peace with Arabs/Palestinians is impossible is nothing but a smoke screen for your insistence to keep living in a certain place under a certain rule. If one the other hand, you do agree, then peace is possible and there is a point to try to discuss what kind of steps could bring to it. <BR/><BR/>P.S. I wonder whether you got my email I sent to your begincenter.org.il account (I got some notification that there were problems delivering it.) If you did not, how could I reach you?Peter Drubetskoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463750011872829081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7014209.post-41105942595415263332008-04-26T05:26:00.000+03:002008-04-26T05:26:00.000+03:00Well, in which world do you live then? In your pos...Well, in which world do you live then? In <A HREF="http://myrightword.blogspot.com/2008/04/land-nationalism-of-arabs-of-eretz.html" REL="nofollow">your post</A> in the lengthy citation on the collaboration of Arabs with the Zionists it claims that <I>"by the end of 1947, Zionist institutions and individual Jews had bought close to 7 percent of Palestine's land surface"</I>. Wow, a whooping 7%! There must be some mistake, no? We got 55% of the territory. Well, it included Negev - technically Eretz Israel, but somewhat looked down upon, not what we <B>really</B> wanted! We wanted those lands with the few water resources and more or less fertile lands, no? We wanted to be in the merkaz, who cares about some arid Negev? But that's aside...<BR/>Now, did you see me denying that Arabs also used ethnic cleansing against Jews in Hebron and other places? But is one justified in stealing from other people because one is robbed? Is one justified kicking other people out of their houses if one is kicked out? And if Arabs wanted to ethnically cleanse the land of the Jews (which, as your quotes on collaborators show, wasn't the intention of all the Arabs, definitely) what of the Yishuv leadership, which was much more unified and systematic in its efforts to do the same (and never really concealed it)?<BR/>Now, how many Jews were ethnically cleansed form "Tel Chai, Hulda <...>Hebron, Bet HaAravah, Neveh Yaakov<...>" etc? About 10,000. How many Arabs? About 750,000! 450 villages erased. Surely, all of these people wanted only our deaths, right? If this is not dispossession and expulsion, what is?Peter Drubetskoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463750011872829081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7014209.post-65707107258755745492008-04-25T11:08:00.000+03:002008-04-25T11:08:00.000+03:00Sorry for being short (you seem to have more time ...Sorry for being short (you seem to have more time that I): "prerequisite dispossession and expulsion"? Which history books have you been reading? The Jews (those who weren't already the resident and indigenous population in the four main cities and other places) first went to outlying areas, bought the land and attempted to integrate to the extent they could. We'll skip the "prerequisite" Arab thievery and violence during 1860 - 1920 and get right to the violence that they initiated, with the intent of ethnically cleansing the land of Jews and which they succeeded - temporarily at Tel Chai, Hulda, etc. and permanently (Hebron, Bet HaAravah, Neveh Yaakov, at least until 1967).YMedadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14333122797414935958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7014209.post-4745597841095529182008-04-25T03:58:00.000+03:002008-04-25T03:58:00.000+03:00Your right to self determination cannot come at th...Your right to self determination cannot come at the expense of other<BR/>peoples', and cannot include as a prerequisite dispossession and<BR/>expulsion of other peoples. If, for instance, tomorrow the Gypsies, who<BR/>also have never had a country of their own, decide that they want one<BR/>and for the purpose of creating it they will demand, say, a territory in<BR/>the South of France and will start expulsions of the people that have<BR/>been living there - will you support this? People who oppose Zionism in<BR/>the way it unfolded itself in the history of the State of Israel (not<BR/>the Zionism of Ahad Ha'Am, say) do so mostly on these grounds. This, I<BR/>repeat again, does <B>not</B> have to have anything to do with<BR/>anti-Semitism.<BR/><BR/>In general, in any moral and legal framework, people can exercise their<BR/>rights and freedoms <B>only as long as this does not encroach upon other<BR/>people's rights and freedoms</B>.<BR/><BR/>I don't know if the Zionist dream could have been realized without the<BR/>expulsions of the Arabs in 1948. It is a hard question. Some, even<BR/>former(?) leftists like Beni Morris or Yehoshua Porat, while admitting<BR/>that atrocities were performed by the young state and that it was<BR/>unprecedented not to let the Palestinian refugees return home once the<BR/>hostilities were over, claim that Israel was justified in doing so as a<BR/>prerequisite to its survival. A moot point, both from factual and moral<BR/>points of view. If they are correct (which I don't believe to be the<BR/>case) then I will indeed be forced to conclude that the idea of Zionism<BR/>did not have a moral footing from the very beginning. Zionism did not<BR/>prevent the Holocaust of the Jewish people and it does not make the<BR/>Jewish people safer in general, since we're actually safer being<BR/>scattered across many countries ("don't put all your eggs in one<BR/>basket", as they say). Even so, I don't believe that the Zionist dream<BR/>still demands the continuous dispossession of the Palestinians for its<BR/>survival right now (actually, quite the opposite is true!). What's done<BR/>is done and we cannot go back and fix our past mistakes and crimes. The<BR/>State of Israel exists, like it or not, and our efforts, our moral<BR/>imperative must be to address the injustices we cause today, prevent any<BR/>in the future and retribute for the past.Peter Drubetskoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463750011872829081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7014209.post-43865433550318885602008-04-24T00:52:00.000+03:002008-04-24T00:52:00.000+03:00It is anti-semitic to deny the right of self-deter...It is anti-semitic to deny the right of self-determination to Jews, which is extended to everyone else.Avihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06156322358503174356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7014209.post-80211192112215184312008-04-23T09:15:00.000+03:002008-04-23T09:15:00.000+03:00No, not criticizing gov't actions - even I do that...No, not criticizing gov't actions - even I do that all the time. Antizionism is a form of antisemitism because it denies the Jews the right to be and the historical reality of being a people. It negates what we truly are and it causes the hate of our national character rather than some inconsequential ethnic religious community. It denies us the human rights that every other group has.YMedadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14333122797414935958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7014209.post-47575020694053161902008-04-23T03:49:00.000+03:002008-04-23T03:49:00.000+03:00BS, Bar Kochba. Anti-Zionism does not have to have...BS, Bar Kochba. Anti-Zionism does not have to have anything to do with antisemitism. It is just easier for you to claim so. Opposing an ideology does not equate with hating a certain ethnic group. Grow up.<BR/>And, while I am not familiar with the views of Tony Judt, from the quotes here there is not even a reason to conclude that he is an anti-Zionist either. Or you'll claim that criticizing the Israeli government actions is automatically anti-Zionist?Peter Drubetskoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463750011872829081noreply@blogger.com